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Future post denying the Covid existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system. Aug 10, 1. Hi everyone. I have a very simple question and observation that I want to share with you. My question and observation has to do with the fact that the traditions of both are different. For instance, the Russian tradition chants the psalms and other service prayers in monotone, while the Greek tradition does not; the Greek tradition has pews and prostrations, the Russian does not - making it more ascetical and, dare I say it, Jewish; the Russian tradition chants the Beatitudes during Liturgy, while the Greeks chant, "through the prayers of the Theotokos Savior save us ".
The Greek tradition kneels during the consecration of the Eucharist, while the Russians do not do this. There must be others among this as well that I forgot to mention or did not know about. My question or rather concern is: How are we going to be united as one Orthodox Church if we have all of these variations of traditions and why should they be different at all if we are One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?
Should we not make efforts to conform ourselves to one tradition? People should be questioning this more, and also, the inquirers may find this a stumbling block. I have heard Fr Hopko speak about how this can be a stumbling block.
He said the Russians say that Greeks are not Orthodox, and vice versa. The Greeks say that about the Russians the Russians say that about the Greeks and the only true church is I don't know what.. Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, Aug 10, We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today? Thus, the Russian believer will be seriously surprised and perhaps even incredulous when he learns that the prayer is factually unknown to the majority of the Greek Church people and that it is not heard in Greek churches during Lent.
I must explain something to avert some misunderstanding. In fact this prayer exists in Greek service books just as in Russian ones. It is not omitted.
It is well known to the clergy, but since, according to the ancient Typikons, it is to be read quietly, "secretly," the laity have completely forgotten it except for the prostrations that accompany it, which are characteristic for Great Lent.
The Greek practice of reading the prayer "secretly" is undoubtedly more ancient. All Typikons, including the Russian ones, prescribe this see for example the existing Russian Typikon's direction for the beginning of Great Lent: "We do this interiorly" or in other places, "mentally," or "secretly," the prayer of Ephraim the Syrian "O Lord and Master".
The Russian practice of reading this prayer aloud is an innovation, introduced in the 15 th or 16 th centuries. Nonetheless, it remains in the people's religious consciousness as one of the more beautiful Orthodox prayers, which, without this practice, could have become forgotten inasmuch as the "secret" or "mental" recitation of certain prayers could be spiritually profitable in monasteries, where the monks are well familiar with the Divine services, but in parishes, especially large ones, such a practice could lead to ignorance and to spiritual impoverishment.
Nothing like that could be said about the Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete. It is very popular among the Russians, being one of those moments, which bring about an attitude of repentance during Great Lent.
It passes by almost without notice with the Greeks. For them, a more popular and cherished and well-attended Lenten service excluding Passion Week is the Akathist to the Theotokos. The Greeks are not satisfied to have it only at Matins of the Fifth week, as all the ancient Typikons prescribe, but they have it more often, dividing it into four parts, during Compline of the first four weeks of Lent.
Here one could find a more intense veneration of the Theotokos during the Lenten cycle had there not been other contradictory factors of which we will speak later. Paradoxically, prayers for Catechumens become a characteristic mark of Great Lent since, except for the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, the Greeks do not hear them during other times of the year. It would seem that the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts would have one and the same meaning both for the Greeks and Russians.
The people like that service and many do attend it, especially if it is celebrated in the evening, as it should be, although this "daring novelty" still meets up with strong objections and is not widely practiced, except among the Orthodox in the West.
But even if there are no observable differences in the celebration of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, which could impact upon the spiritual experience of the people, still there are some serious theological differences, although not officially formulated, which underline the actions and words of the celebrants behind the iconostas. Here to the great surprise of many lay people and even the clergy that do not even suspect it arises the question: does the wine in the chalice, during the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, change into the Lord's Precious Blood, as it does during the Liturgies of John Chrysostom and Basil the Great, or does it remain what it was, except that it was blessed and sanctified?
The Russian Liturgy, since the time of Peter Mogila in any case, answers in the negative: the wine is not changed. This understanding is demonstrated by the fact that the celebrant partaking of the presanctified Body of Christ, which was intinctured with the Precious Blood sanctified at the Liturgy of Chrysostom or Basil the Great, drinks from the chalice without pronouncing those words, which he would when partaking during a "full" Liturgy.
Furthermore, if he is celebrating without a deacon and would later consume the remaining Gifts by himself, he does not drink from the chalice. The deacon that would consume the remaining Gifts at the end of the Liturgy never drinks from the chalice even when he receives Communion. To drink from the chalice is viewed as an impediment towards consuming the remaining Gifts, as is explained in the "Notes concerning certain procedures for the celebration of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts," which go back to the time of Peter Mogila: "If the priest is celebrating alone.
John Chrysostom and Basil the Great. The Greek practice, as indicated in the service books, although not too clearly, presumes what appears to be completely different theological beliefs. Concerning the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts it briefly states: "The priest partakes. John Chrysostom. This is supported by the practice of drinking from the chalice three times, just as at the Liturgies of Chrysostom and Basil the Great, which would not have been of much significance if this was said just about wine and not the Sacred Blood.
After all this the celebrant consumes the Sacred Gifts as during the usual Liturgies. As for the theological explanations, we can find these in the Byzantine liturgists beginning with the 11 th century: during the placement of the particle of the Body of Christ into the chalice the wine changes into the Precious Blood of the Lord through contact with His Body.
I will not express myself concerning this serious theological question. To form a decision about this difference if indeed it exists, since one cannot make firm conclusions on the basis of different practices what concerns differences in belief is beyond my competence since the Church, neither in Byzantium nor in Russia, adopted any conciliar decision on this account. I will only note that the explanation for the change of the wine into the Blood of Christ through contact with a particle of the Body appears strange to me and is unknown to the ancient Fathers.
As for Peter Mogila's "Note," it is obviously inapplicable because of its Scholastic terminology "transubstantiation" and its non-Orthodox theology according to which, the Epiklesis is replaced by the words of institution during the sanctification of the Eucharistic Gifts. The publishers of liturgical books in Russia understood this well: although they include Peter Mogila's "Note" in the text, its more shocking segment, which we cited above in part, is shown in brackets.
On the other hand, the theory of the change through contact carries with it a similar defect: it leaves no place for the Epiklesis.
As for the Russian practice, it appears to be more correct but is contradictory in that it prescribes that the celebrant drink from the chalice three times does it have any particular meaning if this is not the Blood of Christ? And yet it is excessive in that it forbids him to drink if he is the sole celebrant. Holy Week, along with Pascha, is undoubtedly the summit of the whole liturgical year but both among the Russians and the Greeks, it has its own more impressionable moments in popular piety although these are not always the same ones.
Among the Greeks, the people especially like two services that attract large crowds of people: this is the Hymn of Cassia "Lord, the woman having fallen into a multitude of sins It can be said that for the ordinary Greek, these two services constitute the more important moments of the whole Passion Week.
The hymn of the sinful woman is especially loved, and many lay people know it by memory and like to sing it. Newspapers write about it when describing the services of Passion Week. More or less the same can be said about the procession with the Shroud. It is not merely carried around the temple but the procession goes on for miles, escorted by thousands of the faithful holding lighted candles and singing the burial hymns.
Among the Russians this is done somewhat differently, not so much in the meaning of the services and hymns, which are almost identical, but in relation to their place in popular piety. Thus Cassia's hymn, which among the Greeks occupies a central place, is likewise sung by the Russians but does not attract the same degree of attention on the part of the faithful, many of whom are even not familiar with it.
It is simply one of the hymns of Passion Week, all of which are splendid. However, among the Russians, the Vigil of Great Friday actually in the evening of Great Thursday attains especially great significance. The so-called "Twelve Gospels" is one of the most beloved and best attended Passion Week services.
The service of the "Twelve Gospels" is also very important for the Greeks but less so than for the Russians. For the great majority of the Russian faithful the most cherished moment is the singing of the Hymn of Light, "The wise thief This is one of the examples of how a musical rendition can have an effect on the significance of a moment in the Divine service upon popular piety. As for Great Friday, for the Russians, the most important service for that day is not the Burial of Christ in the afternoon as among the Greeks, although it is very moving and attracts many people there are no lengthy processions , but the procession with the Burial Shroud in the evening.
This attracts a great number of faithful and it has a greater meaning for the spiritual content of Passion Week. The Liturgy of St Basil the Great on Great Saturday with the reading of fifteen Paremii -- lessons from the Old Testament reduced to three by the Greeks, except in Athos, in accordance with the Typikon is not too well attended notwithstanding its theological riches and depth. The Russians introduced a liturgical novelty, which could be considered brilliant, truly one of the best that they introduced into the liturgical sphere and which gives an unforgettable dramatic moment during the Liturgy of Passion Saturday.
In the course of the Liturgy, between the readings of the Epistle and the Gospel both of which are already dedicated to the Resurrection , the dark vestments are changed into white while the choir is singing "Arise, O God, Judge the earth: for to Thee belong all the nations! Changing the vestments during the Great Saturday Liturgy is unknown among the Greeks who kept the old order according to which the clergy wear white vestments from the very beginning of the Liturgy.
The reason for this is simple: in ancient times Great Saturday was the day of mass baptisms. These were done during the reading of the Paremii, and custom demanded that the celebrant be in white vestments while celebrating this Sacrament. Slavonic manuscripts of the 14 th century show that in those times the Russians confirmed to the older practice and wore white vestments from the very beginning of the Great Saturday Liturgy. Apparently in the 15 th or 16 th century someone had a fortuitous idea: make the change of the vestments during the readings about the Resurrection.
Everyone is aware of this dramatic moment during Great Saturday. It is very impressive even though it is often accompanied by great fuss and disorder. The Russian theologians embellished this act and saw in it the symbol of Christ's descent into Hades, a prelude to the Resurrection, or a hint of the cosmic Resurrection.
This change of vestments has become so ingrained into Russian liturgical life that the Russian believer would be very surprised and even shocked to learn that this practice is not at all ancient and does not exist in Greek churches. It is also necessary and important to speak about the liturgical particulars among the Greeks and the Russians during the feast of Pascha.
What is most striking is the reading of the Gospel in several languages during the Paschal night Liturgy by Russians Prologue of St. John while the Greeks do this at Vespers on the day of Pascha Christ's appearance to the apostles in the absence of Thomas. However, in order not to lengthen my comments on this, I will move to the exposition of my theme from another point of view: the place of the veneration of the Theotokos in the noted variations.
Here one needs to take note of a novelty recently introduced by the Zoe Brotherhood under obvious Protestant influences, which is quite common in the parishes of major Greek cities but not found in Athos. This is the traditional Orthodox expression "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" being replaced by "Most Holy Theotokos, pray for us," which diminishes the veneration of the Theotokos.
This latter form "pray for us" is in no way heretical. It is found in many prayers to the Mother of God. But when it is used to replace "save us," it gains the appearance of an anti-Theotokian coloration. An earlier parallel trend can be found in the Typikon's direction. The feast of the Annunciation, in the light of its significance in the work of our salvation -- "the beginning of our salvation" and its context, can never be moved to another date even if it coincided with Great Friday, Great Saturday or Pascha itself.
Changing the ancient practice, The Typikon, reasoning that such a coincidence would result in liturgical difficulties taxing the abilities of the rural clergy to cope with them, directs that in such cases the feast of the Annunciation be moved to the second day of Bright Week. This innovation, accepted in Greece, was rejected by the Athonite monks who found that this diminishes the feast of the Annunciation and thus diminishes the role of the Theotokos in our salvation.
The Russian Church preserved the old order of not changing the date of the Annunciation. If that happens, both parties are free to marry someone else — the Church hopes validly this time.
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